And that’s why we’re seeing volume increases. And I think we were up 24% year-over-year, and that’s in the first quarter on overall volume. And so purchases are strong and I think they’ll maintain strong being strong through the second and third quarter.
Doug Harter: Great. And then, Mat, Freddie Mac has talked about possibly getting into second liens. Kind of, what are your thoughts around that product and, how large could that opportunity be?
Mat Ishbia: Yes, I mean, it’s interesting. And Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae both do a good job of trying to innovate and come up with ways to help consumers and grow the mortgage pie in a positive way. It’s a good program potentially. I think it’s still months and months out if it came out. And that product is really already served in the market today through home equity lines of credit and other products that are already out there, can Freddie Mac do them better? Potentially a little cheaper? Potentially, yes. Yes. But it’s not material in any way, shape or form.
Doug Harter: Appreciate it. Thank you, Mat.
Mat Ishbia: Thank you.
Operator: Your next question comes from the line of Bose George with KBW. Please go ahead.
Bose George: Hey, Mat. Good morning. Mat, can you give us your thoughts on some of the potential changes that could happen in the title insurance industry? And can you remind us what you guys have done in terms to date, in terms of reducing title costs, some of your programs?
Mat Ishbia: Yes, thanks for the question. You’re obviously in the weeds of the business. Understand that the title insurance business is one of those parts of the industry that are ripe for disruption. Right. The charging consumers a lot of money for a product that doesn’t require a lot of costs. And so reality is that’s going to get disrupted at some point. We’re doing some things to help lower the cost for consumers on title, and it’s been extremely successful so far and we’re going to continue to lean in on that. And, title insurance companies, which we work great with a lot of title companies and a lot of them do a lot of great things and we’re great to be partners with them, but we’re always looking at ways to make things better for consumers and help brokers grow and succeed.
So title insurance isn’t going to go anywhere. They’re going to be part of the industry and they do great things. But there is going to be some disruption and some movement because there’s a better way to do things for consumers. A lot of people look at it and we’re one of those people that look at it.
Bose George: Okay, great. That’s helpful. Thanks. And then just one on the MSR. So the sale — MSR sales, can you just talk about the sale price relative to the carrying value since it looks like some of that went through the fair value mark on the MSR?
Mat Ishbia: Yes. Interesting is depending on the time of the month and where rates are at that moment, the prices are right in line with what our carrying value is. And so sometimes you pick up a little, sometimes you lose a little bit. But in general, it’s been not a material negative or positive to be honest with you. So it’s good because we’re actually one of the few out there that sell enough MSRs to know that we’re carrying it at the right values where some others maybe carry it. Values that we think are unattainable in the sale market.
Bose George: Okay, great. Thanks.
Operator: Your next question comes from the line of Brad Capuzzi with Piper Sandler. Please go ahead.
Brad Capuzzi: Thanks for taking my question. Just going back to the origination guidance, can you just give us a sense of scenarios that would bring a, bring it to the low end of the range and what scenarios would bring you to the high end of that range? And then just are you seeing any different industry trends during this year’s spring selling season? Thanks.
Mat Ishbia: Yes, I mean, so I think that once again, my job is to try to guide you guys and I get a range that I feel like we’ll hit in the middle of that range. And so what would make it go up or down? You know, obviously a spur on interest rates lower could maybe help us hit the higher end of it. I don’t see that happening or exceed that range at your point. And at the same time, could rates really go up enough to hit us below? Like, I just really think it’s a good range, to be honest with you, $28 billion to $35 billion. I mean, I think last year we did about 31 [ph] in the second quarter. And so I think, if we can exceed last year’s number, that would be a really big number. And we exceeded last year’s number the first quarter.
But last year, second quarter we had a great quarter, if you look back at the numbers. And so I think where margins are at along with where volumes are at, I feel really good about our business and able to handle this. And we’re prepared. One thing that we haven’t really talked about, we are prepared for when rates do drop. If rates drop tomorrow, we’ll be ready. If rates drop in six months, we will be ready. If they drop in 12 months, we will be ready at UWM to capitalize on opportunity. That’s been a big part of our hiring and strategy along the way. And hopefully you can see that in some of our numbers as we’ve hired people and grown and we’re ready for the volume to pick up significantly. But at the same time we’re very profitable, very successful at these ranges, at these margins, at these volumes.
And I feel really good about the numbers I provided in the speech earlier.
