Now we’re going to be doing and taking the American Place in Chamonix and comparing it to the traditional casinos. And if you look at now with Chamonix and The Temporary and the other places and the sports books and you look at building the permanent American Place would be less levered. And by the way, Lewis and I have been doing this a long time. And at Mirage Resorts, when I got there was pretty heavily levered. We had the Mirage, and we levered, we borrowed more money built Treasury. It was successful. Then we borrowed more money, built Bellagio and Boreas, and they were successful. And along the way, we became investment grade. It was the industry’s first investment-grade company. But we grew our way into it. And at Pinnacle, we did the same thing.
I mean the properties we inherited at Pinnacle, we were able to double their results just by big better managers. And then we built LaBears and then we’ve built the 2 properties in St. Louis. And each time we borrow the money, build something, get good returns on investment and that would reduce the leverage. And so when we get to this company eight, nine years ago, I mean, it was pretty levered, and we’ve already reduced the leverage. And when this stuff when Chamonix gets open and so on, if you do it right, it’s a win-win. In other words, shareholders are getting good returns, employees are getting good growth opportunities. But bondholders also do well because you end up getting upgraded, you end up calling the bonds before the maturity and nobody loses.
And I can plan it that way. Legally, I guess, management and the Board is only obligated to shareholders. But in my mind, we have all these constituencies and the lenders are certainly a big part of that, and we’ve always taken care on every aspect.
Lewis Fanger: Yes. I think what a lot of people forget sometimes is we borrowed a big chunk of this debt to build two properties, one that’s already opened in The Temporary and one that’s about to open in seven weeks in Colorado. And when you pro forma in run rate for those properties, depending on your estimates, you’re probably between 3 and 3.5 times gross levered. So to Dan’s point, it’s actually a pretty manageable balance sheet. And then we’ll have cash flows that all that generates that we can use to contribute towards funding the permanent casino in Waukegan, there will likely be some sort of incremental slug of debt there. But between now and then, we’ve got a split rating between S&P and Moody’s. I would expect the lower part of that equation to get upgraded just on the sheer fact that you’ve got an interest expense that’s around $35 million a year and a company with pro forma for those two openings, that’s making 3, 4 times that amount.
So it’s doing all the things that we intended.
Dan Lee: Actually, it’s interesting to look at the 9-month numbers, our EBDIT for nine months exceeds our annual interest expense. And our debt during those nine months included all the money needed to finish M&E. So without Chamonix earning anything and with American Place just ramping up after opening in February, we still earned enough in the nine months to cover our annual interest expense. So obviously, we have leverage. But in some ways, you look at it, how lever it are we really. We’re not all that levered.
Lewis Fanger: It’s essentially take leverage since it’s for something that isn’t yet in those trailing numbers, yes.
Ricardo Chinchilla: Got it. Thank you so much for taking my question.
Lewis Fanger: Thank you, I think we have time for one last question, Dan.
Dan Lee: Yes.
Operator: We have a follow-up from Ryan Sigdahl with Craig-Hallum. Please go ahead.
Ryan Sigdahl: Hi guys, just quickly, which sports books do you still have licenses for in your skin? And then what should we expect for Q4 from a licensing line of revenue with the Circa [indiscernible] termination?
Lewis Fanger: Yes. So on a go-forward basis, we have on skin in Illinois, 1 skin that’s live in Indiana and 2 skins that are live in Colorado, and that some total of that is $8 million per year. What we have idle is we’ve got 2 skins idle in Indiana, one skin idle in Colorado.
Ryan Sigdahl: Any onetime impacts in Q4, Lewis?
Lewis Fanger: No.
Ryan Sigdahl: Thank you.
Lewis Fanger: I know it gets a little confusing with all that movement there.
Operator: I would like to turn the floor over to management for closing comments.
Dan Lee: I was going to say the Illinois one is far more important than the others and Circa knows that business better than anyone else. So we’re pretty happy with what they are doing so. So we don’t know what the results are, but we know that they are very good at promoting a sports book and good at operating it. And it’s fun to watch. And on that, I like to thank everybody for your support, and we’ll get Chamonix open. And next time, we’ll be talking about how it’s been doing. So thank you very much.
Lewis Fanger: Thank you guys.
Operator: This concludes today’s teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time, and thank you for your participation.
